MalikTous says:
'Saints' were a faulty mechanism used by the Catholic church to attempt to legitimise their hijacking of other religions' godlets. As I believe in neither Catolicism nor saints, and consider Patricius a Roman git with extreme prejudices regarding Gaelic faiths, I consider the Ides of March or thereabouts both 'Irish Day' and 'Kill a Tyrant Day' (for the execution of Julius Cæsar). I respect Eire, but I also respect Arwen and Cerrunos more than Patricius and Pope Constantine...
Kevin Moore says:
I should clarify: My mom's birthday is on St. Patrick's Day, which is why I wished her Happy Birthday.
But thanks for the anti-authoritarian perspective, MalikTous! We should have more "Kill the Tyrant" days. :-)
The Medievalist says:
Actually, Maliktous is incorrect in his little sophmoric rant. Saints, in point of fact, have only marginal connection to the pre-Christian gods and demi-gods, although the devotion attached to them often could approximate the use made of the older entities.
Historically, saints are a blend of apotheosized cultural, social and religious heros. I won't delve into the theological concepts which Malki wouldn't understand anyway. However, in general, saints had a subversive role as much as a devotional one. Both Peter and Paul were used in opposition to the domination of the Synagouge and the Roman Empire, Patrick against the power of the pagan druidic "priesthood" Jean d'Arc against English hegemony on the mainland and Francis and Dominic against the ineptitude of aristocratic bishops. The list goes on.
Yes, periodically the heirarchy would try to use a saint to combat cultural movements (St. John Neopmunk against the Hussites, for instance), however the Church's offical engagement in the process of controling the enrollment (canonization) of saints is a rather modern affair. It began developing slowly during the high Middle Ages (after 1200) but was not really formalized until after the Reformation. Prior to that a saint was "canonized" by the devotion and attachment of local communities, not the heirarchy of the Church. This made the cult of saints a bit of a challenge to heirarchical authority - not to mention political authority. It is an interestingly forgotten fact of history that the Catholic Church (unlike the Orthodox or Protestants) historically fought tooth and nail against unbridled political authority. Not surprisingly, the papacy was subjugated to political powers through most of its history. It took the Gregorian Reform and the Concordat of Worms to free the papacy of secular, political control - and many scholars question if real freedom from secular domination was achieved until the Lateran Pact. . . but I digress.
It is a fact of history that religion has less to do with theological belief than it does cultural antagonisms. Patrick suffered at the hands of the "olde religions" of Eire, so his Christianity became an anti-authoritarian tool to destroy those religions. Today, gits like Malk see Christianity, Islam or whatever they hate in the same light as Patrick saw the Gaelic cults.
Myself, I detest the ignorant herd as passionately as I disdain the hubris of the tyrant, but I'll take an educated Pope over a half-literate populist troglodyte any day of the year.
And I have a special depth of loathing for peer pressure. My "rebellion" as a teen was to engage in wholesale war against my peers, whose oppressive demand for conformity I spit upon with disdain to this day.
Pfui!
Raymond St. George
Toby Bartels says:
Sure, the Catholic Church was against unbridled political power, because they wanted the unbridled power! But Raymond, you're right about the Irish druids.
Saints (or rather, those humans later called "Saint") are a varied lot, and must be judged (if you want to hold an opinion) one by one; like everyone else, they'll fall somewhere between absolutely good and absolutely evil.
But if that's too wishy-washy for this discussion, I'll say a hearty anarchist "Down with the church! and down with the state!" at the same time.
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