Khime says:
If you're still trying to figure out the scale of the model, you could extrapolate it by comparing other (human) models in the same range to their actor counterparts. I wouldn't recommend using Gandalf or any other non-humans, as their sizes are subject to movie magic.
Anonymous says:
Oh man, this is hilarious. And interesting, actually. Though if you're not careful, this will turn into a truly LOTR-scale epic quest for you, trying to figure this out. :)
(You're probably putting more thought into it than Peter Jackson ever did.)
Cameron says:
Oh, whoops, forgot to fill in my name on that last comment. (I'm used to WCN, where it knows who I am already...)
The Auld Grump says:
The scale is roughly 1/72 - where a six foot tall human measures 1 inch to the top of his head. It is generally closer to 5 feet per inch, do the mysterious process called 'figure creep' (i.e. people prefer to buy bigger, more solid models...) but the LotR line is closer to 1/70.
The Auld Grump
The Auld Grump says:
As for gluing balrogs together, I would suggest using 5 minute epoxy, available in most hardware stores. Super glue (Crazy Glue, Zap a Gap, etc.) can also be used, but does not form as solid a join.
If you have any stores that specialize in role-playing games/wargames in your local area then you may find someone who would be willing to help you put it together, or even paint it. (Since you paid a pretty penny you might as well have a pretty mini.)
Once upon a long time ago (a whopping five years gone by now) I used to make a small income from assembling and painting miniatures. The Balrog is actually pretty nice looking once finished.
The Auld Grump
Steve V. says:
To add more complication to all this, let's go back and forget about terminal velocity and realize that there are other things happening if you can accelerate towards the center of the earth for 104 seconds. In this case gravity is not constant, but is decreasing towards the center. Offhand, that makes a difference of about 2% in the gravitational force at the end of the plunge - mostly negligible. What would happen if it went to the center? Weightlessness. And if the hole goes all the way through? Periodic motion down to the center, up to the other side to zero speed, then reverse and start back all the way through. How many seconds to get to the center? Need to do an integral... Then another thing is forgotten. The radial velocity - the earth is spinning at the same angular velocity, but the linear velocity varies based on radius. The balrog's sideways motion does not vary with radius (depth) and the vector direction was determined when he started falling, but the hole orientation is rotating with the earth. The balrog would presumably hit the wall when falling far enough. Need to do the complete math here - the real thing is that the balrog is doing a truncated orbit... Have fun.
Adam says:
That Balrog is supposed to be in 25mm [to 6 foot] scale. Being part of GW's Lotr range [which are smaller than thier usual fantasy stuff to be noncompatable.] So in theory roughly 1/72nd scale. Knowing GW that could be utterly inaccurate.
Sabertooth used to do a preassembled one in a larger scale as part of the LOTR CMG, but its been years since those were available.
Nornagest says:
There is an easier, if less precise, way to do this. The balrog's roughly humanoid, right? And the wings, if they exist, are probably negligible; it's not good to have a lot of moving mass. So find a human of roughly the same build, estimate the height of the balrog, and use the fact that volume increases as the cube of height to scale up. That ought to give you something within 20% or so of the correct answer, asssuming balrogs have the same density as water -- and you're making that assumption anyway.
I'm really overthinking this. But so are you, and I've got a couple of beers in me.
Nornagest says:
Forgot to mention: the balrog gnawing on the Statue of Liberty is adorable.
Mikel says:
Hey, for your model, go to something like Hobbytown and get CA glue, NOT Super Glue. And while you're at it, get some accelerator. You will hate yourself SO much less while putting it together. GW (the folks who make that model) have their own, but its higher than just normal CA Glue. You'll also need a good pair of clippers (Those scissor like nail clippers work wonders, and I know you can get em here in the states for cheap, if you check the discount stores). Oh, and because the CA will get everywhere, make sure and get some glue remover. Its worth every penny.
You may know all of this, but you seem to be fairly new at modeling, especially GW models. Just passing along lessons learned.
Broney says:
Wouldn't this just get you the mass of a Balrog if it were made of plastic?
Anonymous says:
Khime's got a good idea. Ian McKellan's dimensions can't be that hard to find, and there's some pretty good shots of Gandalf and the Balrog on the bridge.
Szopa says:
Get the weight of a man (preferably a Strongman) of a similar posture to the Balrog, then multiply it. the model is plastic and empty inside so I can vaguely guess that it COULD be a little inaccurate ;]
westmarked says:
Congratulations on your first foray into the overpriced world of Games Workshop. I still remember my high school games of Warhammer 40K with some fondness, although my bank account begged to differ.
Cortejo says:
wouldn't it be easier to make a play doh balrog shape? that wouldn't float or be expensive.
Play doh is salt + flour + water.
Than you could take the model back to the store abd buy more pasta.
CatCube says:
Can't you just submerge the pieces w/o assembling it? The volume of the Balrog is going to be the same as the sum of the parts.
Submerge the entire molded parts rackr with the parts on them, then take the parts off and submerge the racks alone and subtract.
Eutychus says:
Rumour here (well, French high school geology class notes) has it that the earth's crust under mountains, plus the solid peridotite, might come to at least 100km. Hope this helps!
Eutychus says:
Oh, and wouldn't there be updrafts due to hot air rising up the chasm, especially being so near to the mantle? (And it says here that under mountains the crust can go up to 80km thick).
Aufero says:
The scale of the balrog figure may be a complex issue. Wikipedia claims that set is 25mm scale, but the LOTR wikia says the unnamed figures are 10mm, while the named figures are "heroic" scale. (which generally indicates 28mm = 6 feet, but can have significant variations for larger figures)
So... is the balrog a named or unnamed figure? It's certainly (anti-)heroic, so I suspect it's on the larger scale. Still, it might be best to compare it against both named and unnamed human figures from the same set for purposes of calculation.
(Insert long geeky argument about the height of humans in middle earth here.)
some dude says:
...you are assuming the gravity and atmosphere density in middle earth are known. BUT ARE THEY??!?!?
Aufero says:
Oh, and I'd happily donate in the name of (balrog) science, but I can't find a link to your paypal account.
For science!
Bork Bork says:
CatCube said: "Can't you just submerge the pieces w/o assembling it? The volume of the Balrog is going to be the same as the sum of the parts."
Clever lazy man solution. You're assuming that this model is a solid block. If it has hypothesis goes kaplooey. Hopefully 'Irony Chan' will check this and seal all joints if true.
It would also their page hits.
Toosdoodle says:
In the Two Towers Merry and Pippin discuss their exact height when Pippin drinks the special water in Treebeards forest and it makes him get taller. You could determine how tall Gandalf is based on Pippins height and then Compare Gandalf to the balrog to determine the Balrogs height.
Anonymous says:
Do you really need to build the balrog? Surely if you immerse all his dis-embodied parts it will be equal to the volume of all his parts glued together.
Mojo says:
If you have access to an Ancient Gamer (someone who remembers playing D&D before 1980), you might see if they have access to a very old piece of literature (reprinted once or twice in very old DRAGON magazines) called "How Heavy Is My Giant?" It had a similarly detailed discussion as to calculating the weights of giant-class humanoids.
Sparkzy says:
You know, you don't need to assemble the Balrog. Just make sure the hollow pieces are filled in with something waterproof (spackle?), and then dump the pieces in the water. It would be the same as if you chopped up a Balrog, then determined its volume. Should be the same as an intact Balrog.
Sparkzy says:
Ooops. CatCube mentioned it first (though you still have to fill in any hollow pieces so they displace the proper volume of water).
TomM says:
Don't forget to take into account that the Mass of smoke and fire is... very little. Granted, he probably can change his Mass at will, but the Balrog would likely want to have the least mass.
Something that could help would be determining how long it took Gandolf to catch up to him (since his Mass is more easily determined). Get some skydiving friends to help you determine the terminal velocity of Gandalf while he's doing his moves.
Fings says:
A rough approximation:
Gandalf falls after the Balrog, but catches up with him, so obviously the Balrog's terminal velocity is slower than a falling Ainu (which for purposes of estimation, we will assume equals a falling human). As the terminal velocity of a falling human is around 50m/s on the low end, let us assume that speed for the Balrog. Furthermore, let us ignore the initial acceleration and assume the Balrog starts at that terminal velocity. Therefore, 50m/s*104s = 5200m, or 5.2km. This is a rough upper bound, as the Balrog may have an even lower terminal velocity, or had its speed reduced from bouncing off walls, etc, plus the fact I ignored the slower than terminal velocity for the first few seconds.
So I would say the lake is no more than 5.2km down.
E. Stephen says:
I'm guessing that when fully assembled, portions of model will be hollow.
in order for the water displacement to be accurate, no water must be allowed to seep inside the model's hollows.
Even with good model glue it will be very tricky to assure completely water tight seams.
Anonymous says:
Did it occur to ANYONE that an unassembled Balrog and a fully assembled Balrog have the same volume (ignoring a few drops of glue here and there)?
So, no need to dump the assembled Balrog into water :-)
Blake says:
if you plan on timing barlog falls to scale terminal velocity, you're going to need to use dimensional analysis. Find a mechanical engineer who has finished taking fluid dynamics. You will learn about the magic of the Reynolds number.
Jessica says:
Maybe I'm being too simple, but couldn't you just put the individual parts into the water?
Jesse says:
Wouldn't the scale model have to have the exact same organs and density and stuff?
Nate says:
Just to throw this out here to make life even *more* difficult for you: The model, from here, seems to include fire as part of the model. Which means you have to account for that. In addition to deciding whether or not to include the weapon, too. Not to mention that air resistance, even if you assume the wings aren't parachuting him, makes a large difference.
Nate says:
Oh, and also the friction of the Balrog scraping down the sides of the chute.
Josh says:
"Some Dude" suggested that atmospheric density at the center of the earth may not be know. This is a very important consideration when calculating terminal velocity, as a greater air density will decrease terminal velocity. The effect would be much more substantial below sea level than above. (I remember my ears popping once as I drove into death valley, and that's just a few hundred feet down.) Anyone still have their Calculus II books around?
Evan says:
Wow. This discussion is incredible. I know how many beans make five, but most of this math is over my head. Still, I humbly agree with TomM that you'd have to make your calculations based on the Balrog being made from smoke and fire...?
Rich says:
I hope you paint it first, I wanna see!
Jhealen says:
I'm too lazy to get up, put the dvds in and watch, but didn't they hit the wall a few times? And wouldn't that slow them down?
Not as fun says:
To be honest, you can get his water displacement with out assembling him, unless the model creates an air pocket or something the total displacement will be the same constructed or not. Then again, wheres the fun in that.
SpotWeld says:
You know, after determining volume (and scaling up) you'll have to consider a density of a Balrog. Given that a Balrog has wings you may need to assume it's a flighted creature (despite it's subterranean habitat), would this lead you to assume that a Balrog weighs less than the volume of water it displaces? (In other words "Does it weight less than a duck?")
Ian says:
I'd like to point out a possible flaw in this...
Balrogs are creatures of fire and shadow... so.. it might not necessarily HAVE a mass...
Sorry...
Anonymous says:
Gandalf also manages to catch up to his falling sword, which would have little to no air resistance (physically impossible), making comparisons based on this figure just about worthless.
Manthas says:
OK, another nerd voice in the crowd - granted it has been a while since I've watched this scene in the movie, but aren't there many "Oof, aah, gramph!" moments of collision between the two characters, as well as the walls of the tunnel as they fall? This is going to create a stuttered fall, without a smooth acceleration curve that you are assuming above.
I've gotta say Fings' estimation above sounds like a great method as well, so figuring in these other complications, I'd say you've got a real close upper bound on the solution to your problem of the depth of the lake from their initial falling point.
cellocgw says:
Heck, you can do better: open up a LOTR pinball machine and measure that Balrog (dead center, next to the ring ramp.
elpollodiablo says:
Perhaps you wouldn't be starving if you didn't drop $60 to prove what a colossal fucking dork you are
Anonymous says:
Aufero - the 10mm figures for LotR are actually from a separate game, based on The Hobbit - The Battle of Five Armies. The heroic and non-heroic characters in the LotR game are quite close in scale, one to the other. Bo5R on the other hand is intended for a really massive battle, with a few thousand troops being represented.... hard to do with figures that occupy an inch of space on the tabletop. There are reasons that schools do not accept Wikipedia as a research source....
My reason for posting today has already been covered though - I was going to mention the 'disassembled model can be used to determine volume' thing, but was beaten to it. The only difference is that I was going to suggest modeling clay rather than spackle.
The Auld Grump
Physical Challenge says:
You might not have to assemble it. Wouldn't the displacement be (nearly) the same if you just submerged all the pieces at once? If the assembled model has any hollow areas you're going to have to make sure water doesn't seep in to the cavities as well.
Jeff says:
Gandlaf isn't an Ainu, he's an Istari, which is a physical embodiment of an Ainu spirit. True Ainu who have not taken on a certain manifestation in Middle Earth can take any physical shape they desire, so it would be impossible to calculate terminal velocity for an Ainu but, fortunately, it is possible to roughly calculate that of an Istari, which has a semi-permanent shape and form, which I would estimate to be about ~120% of a human in height. Gandalf is just over 7' tall, and we can assume the average human in Middle Earth is the same as on Earth about 5'10. Now, mass increase exponentially because we exist in three dimensions, so the increase in mass is not scalar and won't be 120% also. For sake of argument, I think we need to assume that Istari are proportioned like humans, so that 120% applies to height, width, and depth, meaning that the mass of an Istari is considerably more than 120% of a human. As an irregular shape, it's difficult to nail down, but I would put it at just a little less than double the mass of a human. A 20% increase in each dimension of a uniform shape (like a cube) would result in just over a 95% increase in mass. Of course, a creature that is long-lived and this large probably has considerably greater bone density, a larger heart, and larger lungs than humans, at least if evolutionary principles apply in Middle Earth, which is definitely unclear, given Tolkein's religious beliefs.
physical challenge says:
so, I guess some other folks said "submerge the pieces" too...Anyhoo, don't ol' Gandy and the Balrog fall at the same rate in the movie? Couldn't you just.....solve for Gandalf?
I will never use X as a variable again, from now on I will always solve for Gandalf. Thanks!
Mark says:
Email Weta Studios!, I know they won't know or maybe even care, but you never know how they might help...
maurokaliu says:
the thing is, Gandalf falls in the vacuum of the balrog, so he had to go faster, then they started fighting together and become a single mass, I remember Gandalf climbing back the balrog and stabin it some before it hit the wall in the movie, and they hit the wall more than once. also in movies the time dosent flow the same way in real life, im sure the fall was meant to be shorter.
michael kingery says:
this discussion is completely awesome, and yet terrifying in its depth
Anonymous says:
Actually, I should point something out: You don't *need* to glue the balrog together. Since you're measuring volume, you just clip the bits off and drop them into water.
David says:
Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but this was the subject of my masters thesis at CMU in summer of 2005.
Based on this picture: http://www.artifexcreations.co.uk/15%208%2006/balrog-front.jpg
Assuming:
1. The dead soldier is 72" tall
2. the balrog is 4 times that height
3. The balrog has a BMI of 27
The Balrog's mass is 3,185.6 lbs
Given the Balrog's cross-sectional area 30.13sqft, a 1.53 drag coeficient (obtained from wind tunnel experiments with 13 different balrog models) and calculating air density at the assumed starting altitude of 5000ft above sea level the balrog reaches terminal velocity of 262ft/sec in 8 sec (after covering a distance of 1028 feet) and then over the next 96 seconds it covers a distance of 25,152 ft for a total distance of 4.96 miles or 7.666 km (obviously a reference to the 7th ring of hell) hope that saves everyone some time.
Newsatan says:
I think the answer is in the pasta
Garfeimao says:
The problem I see in trying to figure out the Terminal Velocity of the Balrog is that Gandalf caught up and ended up riding the Balrog down a good part of the way. So, won't you have to add him into the equation? Oh, and as far as extrapolating the Balrog's size, comparing him to Gandalf might be the way to go, since his mass is much easier to figure. Also, the Sideshow Collectibles version of the Balrog might be a better scale model, since it was created by WETA, and is therefore an actual scale model of the filmed version. Just sayin'. . .
Anonymous says:
My head hurts...SO. DAMN. MUCH.
cortejo says:
I am so addicted to this discussion it is not funny.
Mechanical Engineer says:
Okay, some of this stuff make my head hurt.
NO NO NO - the unassembled pieces won't be the same volume as the assembled model! The internal volume between the pieces (limbs, chest, head, etc) would be lost and all you'd have would be the volume of the first few inches (scaled) of skin. It's like saying a plaster cast of your body will have the same volume as the rest of you when submerged in water - the cast will allow in water that your body wouldn't.
As far as density, your best bet is probably a lizard or reptile. Just because it has wings doesn't mean it's particularly light (think 747). Tiny wings can lift a heavy body if you flap them hard enough. The Balrog as popularly depicted is very muscular and has minimal extra material, so a reptile may fit the bill since it has similar properties.
I have some experience with aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, and flight design, so I'll say one thing about estimating the Cd value: Good Luck! There's too many unknowns about the makeup of the Balrog to obtain any certainty in your estimate, in addition to it being a very hard value to normally estimate. Your best bet would be to figure out the weight your scale model would have, fill it with lead to give you the proper weight, and drop it from a height. If you time the descent and know how far it dropped, calculating the terminal velocity is easy.
I can help if you want it.
engineerpower(at)yahoo(dot)com
Peace.
Bork Bork says:
As I tried to explain earlier, and was supported by others, you can't get it from the submerged parts due to air spaces inside the model. Instead of sealing it, I suppose the idea of filling the model is a good idea.
It is sad that no one can be bothered to read earlier people's comments. However, it is interesting to me that everyone thinks that they are very clever, so clever they don't have to read what came before.
I suppose you can assume that fire has a mass of close to 0...the question becomes, what is the balrog burning? If it is 'magic' then you might as well give its substrate a volume and mass of 0.
Admiral Zorquon says:
elpollodiablo: as you've read this far down the comment stream, you might want to consider evaluating your own dorkitude first ;-)
Jeff: JRRT certainly was a traditional Roman Catholic, but do you think he was explicitly opposed to the idea of evolution? (I don't know myself -- I'm curious to find out!)
Blaine says:
I'm sorta shocked that no one has question if 9.81m/s2 is the gravitational constant in Middle Earth. Perhaps that needs to be questioned as well.
A. Nonny Moose says:
If I recall correctly, Middle Earth is NOT a globe, but more of a ship shaped slab of rock floating in either, I don't think the habitable bits go all the way around, only on the top. So falling into the center of the earth shouldn't be a problem... falling out of the keel into the either may be a bigger issue.
shawn says:
No...you can't just put the disassembled pieces in water and calculate. The model is HOLLOW...all skin and no guts. The displacement has to account for the insides.
Newt says:
Hey now, if Walt Disney had been afraid of weirdos with questionable art skills and even worse taste, would his company be worth over $34 billion today? Besides, all you'd need to do to chase off said weirdos would be to systematically violate every furry stereotype you can lay your paws...er... hands on.
Brad Knowles says:
As for Gandalf, consider that he can use magic, and could presumably have increased his speed in order to catch up to his sword. Seems to be a pretty minor spell to me. He might also have been able to call the sword to him. Again, a pretty minor spell. And he could certainly have streamlined his shape so that he would fall faster -- skydivers do it all the time.
For the Balrog, you can't just submerge the model in water without assembling it and making sure it's waterproof, because the purpose of the submergence is to measure the volume of water displaced by the assembled figure, which will be hollow. You'll have to hold it under water, or once it is assembled you'll have to fill it with a heavy waterproof material. By measuring the volume of water displaced (weight and density of the model won't matter), you can then estimate the mass of the figure if it had precisely the same density as water.
But I'm not convinced that any of that really matters, because you're making a huge assumption that the Balrog actually had a density approximately that of water. I don't think that this is necessarily a valid assumption, given that it's a magical creature and can presumably increase or decrease its mass at will.
Newt says:
Correction: Please ignore the faulty number I stole from an unsourced Wiki. But the point remains - Do not be afraid!
BobDobbs says:
Really? Wow. This is probibly the nerdiest dorkiest discussion I have ever heard...please take up masturbation or work or something before you accidentally breed! I killed Gandalf with my MIND BULLETS!
Milo says:
Are you familiar with Rule 34? People will make porn of EVERYTHING, furry or not. You could make a comic about talking furniture and people would still draw eye-gouge-worthy fanart, somehow. Drawing furry art may slightly increase the speed at which perverts show up, simply because of the stereotype that all furry fans are perverts causing many non-perverts to arbitrarily steer clear of the genre. Like, umm, you. Which just compounds the problem.
CasaDelGato says:
Sigh, "I, Claudius" sounds like fun. I get REALLY tired of "furry" comics where it wouldn't make any difference if the characters were human.
Charles says:
How exactly do we help pay for this? I mean - I'll pay just to get the answer from somebody else. I think I can write it off on my taxes anyway.
That One Guy says:
It has been said before, but I think it bears repeating - Lord of the Rings is NOT Dungeons and Dragons. Gandalf is not a D&D wizard. The Balrog is not a D&D elemental or demon.
To understand the nature of magic in Middle Earth you have to go back to the creation of the world, as related in the Silmarillion. All of the Valar and Maiar, as well as the others of their kind who elected not to come to earth, had a hand in the creation of the entire history of the world. This gives them limited knowledge of the future, as well as some "magic". Their power is often sharply limited. For instance, Melkor, later named Morgoth, the most powerful of the Valar, in fact the most powerful single being on the face of the world, found himself, after many atrocious deeds, unable to change his form to something less unpleasant, a power that most of the other Valar and Maiar possessed. Therefore, even if the Balrog was originally inherently formless, he may not have much control over his appearance or his mass. Likewise, Gandalf finds himself at one moment powerless to escape Saruman, and at the next able to strip him of his power with a word. It should therefore be clear that this sort of magic is circumstantial - not "at-will" like the D&D sort.
I haven't actually read the Silmarillion or the Lord of the Rings in quite some time now, so if I've mis-remembered anything, feel free to correct me.
dc says:
I'd just like to point out that an object that is still tumbling has not reached terminal velocity, as its cross-section will be constantly changing (unless, of course, you resort to the high-school physics bail-out of "assume your balrog is a frictionless sphere" :).
DIguana says:
I think you missed out on a huge opportunity here, Irony. Just think of all the money you could've made licensing your characters to fruit juice companies.
Garfeimao says:
Still finding this discussion humorous. And I've sent the link to the fine peeps at WETA, we'll see if any of them bite and come in here. They are all geeks, after all, it's why they do what they do.
Schol-R-LEA says:
IronyChan wrote: I really don't like the idea of weirdos sending me pornographic fanart.
And no one ever sent you any for Get Medieval or Knowledge is Power? I know that furry fans often get very... pushy... about that, but that's because it's pretty much a visual fandom by nature. It's Fanpron is hardly limited to that, however. Obscurity is only defense from Rule 34, you know, and your work is no longer obscure...
That having been said, I can't blame you for not wanting that, I guess. Most comic artists, if they aren't interested in making erotic self-parody themselves (e.g., David Willis), don't like the idea of others molesting their characters. A few will give their blessing to limited forms of it (like how Our Lady Of The Funky Horror allowed the re-scripting thread on the CRFH board), but many feel even that much is inappropriate.
MithLuin says:
Actually, accepting 9.8 m/s2 is fine for Middle Earth. Middle Earth has been a spherical world since the Downfall of Numenor near the end of the Second Age, and Tolkien said repeatedly that it was meant to represent our world - not a different planet or something.
Ada says:
I described this discussion as "how to calculate the terminal velocity of the Balrog when it falls in Moria". My husband says, "Infinite: below 300 feet, there's no atmosphere and Middle earth has an infinite diameter with the gravity at the notional center." and a friend: "if it has infinite diameter, there can be no notional center" hubby: "Sure it does -- directly below the observer. That's why it's "notional". ;)
Hazgarn says:
I don't think furry art is necessarily more vulnerable to pornographic fanart than other artwork. I'm sure there plenty of purely human dirtiness and slasheroo out there... :O
Carter says:
There's also an issue with the number of seconds. I don't have the DVD on hand, but when a movie uses several cuts to show a fast action, it can expand or contract the amount of time taken at will. The classic example of this is someone getting thrown through a window, where the moment of impact will be shown repeatedly through multiple cuts, and the action takes an unnaturally long time even without slow-motion.
Alternately, they might have cut out the boring part of a ten minute fall.
2Lazy2Read says:
Forgive me: I am too lazy to read all the comments. I am also a geek, LOTR fan, and MythBusters devotee (how's that for redundant?).
Here is how I'd find the terminal velocity of a Balrog:
1) Buy scale model of Balrog (DONE!)
2) Find scale of scale model of Balrog (about 1:70-ish -- DONE!)
3) Build scale model of Balrog
4) Make ballistics gel cast of scale model of Balrog
5) Build vertical wind tunnel large enough to accommodate falling, tumbling Balrog (I'd guess maybe a 2m length of 18" clear plastic pipe would do?)
6) Calibrate wind tunnel with anemometer or pitot tube or some such to find wind speed.
7) Fire up wind tunnel; throw in Balrog.
8) Adjust wind speed to suspend Balrog in wind tunnel.
9) Do some math (hello, Reynolds number...) to find speed of full-scale Balrog.
GremlinWrangler says:
Since no body else is going to do it and Irony is too shy, there is a donation link at http://get-medieval.livejournal.com/324196.html
on the last page of the first Get Medieval run. The whole Balrog conversation reminds me of dinner conversation at home. Yes I spawned from weird people.
deus says:
you know, the volume of the model is the same whether or not the model is glued together.
Milo says:
As others have already pointed out. Yesterday I thought I was creative coming up with the "dump pieces in water without assembly" idea, but then I read the comments and saw several other people beat me to it. Plus, someone explained why it wouldn't actually work.
PT says:
Ahem .. Remember that when Gandalf finally threw the Balrog down, he "broke the mountain with his fall". That suggests a very large mass indeed, since if the entire readership of this blog were dropped onto a mountain all at once from a great height, it is unlikely we'd do more damage than dislodge a few boulders. So the Balrog must have a supernaturally large mass, several orders of magintude greater than this experiment will calculate.
Benjamin says:
RE: Fire and Shadow Folks: Am I crazy? If the Balrog being made of fire and shadow meant it had no mass, it wouldn't fall due to gravity at all, would it? Gravitational attraction requiring two bodies with mass and all? Am I a silly Newtonian? I would think that we can presume it has *some* mass.
7 says:
the value g used ignores the fact that the fall takes place inside the earth not a point source. 9.8m/s2 is an accepted value at sea level. towards the center of the earth, it should tend to 0...
Pontificus says:
While you're at it, let's figure out how many Ainur can dance on the head of a pin.
Mad Scientist says:
...a wizard did it.
Charles says:
Thank you, Gremlin. For some reason I couldn't find the Paypal link. Here's to funding the arts.
Mitra says:
>> PT says: Ahem .. Remember that when
>> Gandalf finally threw the Balrog down,
>> he "broke the mountain with his fall".
>> That suggests a very large mass indeed,
Valid point! So assuming that relationship between mass and inertia is normal for barlogs we can neglect the air resistance!
The Auld Grump says:
Hmmm, I may not know how fast the balrog is falling, but I can think of some rude person that I would like it to land on....
Along with, I think, most of the posters on this topic, I am having a great time. Please Irony, don't be discouraged by some rude person about to be flattened by a falling balrog.
The Auld Grump
Tolkien Forever says:
I know we wouldn't want to go to TOLKIEN in this 'Jacksonian' era, but the Balrog in a 'demon of fire', & 'shadow & fire', i.e., so how ya gonna figure how fast that falls?
PJ's Balrog, however, can break through rock, so must be as hard as rock if that helps......
It's nice to see a college kid spend his time on this instead of partying all the time.
Dorks rule!
Bodi says:
Terminal velocity is not involved with Gandalf catching up. The Balrog will produce a turbulent zone behind/above itself as it falls. The air resistance in this zone is less than in the undisturbed air the monster is encountering: Gandalf's acceleration is identical though, so by having less resistance he will catch up. This effect is well known in skydiving "relative work", if you go closely below another falling person that person will fall faster and collide with you.
Aerodynamic tests would have to be done with a complex model. A real (even if imaginary) creature would not behave, aerodynamically, like a lpastic model. The wings would likely be used to stabilize/decelerate the fall. If not, they wouldn't stick out rigidly like hard plastic.
The point about hitting the walls due to rotational velocity is true. I assume the beast maintains enough composure to use its wings to counteract this effect - it may not be flying but, like Buzz Lightyear, falling with style.
DrGaellon says:
"nom nom nom"
ROFL! So much cooler.
hooka says:
This is my first time visiting your blog and i must say i like it very much.
Your message was an educationa read.
I will definetly come back here more often!
hooka
littlebeast says:
Yeah, um, I haven't had any personal experience in this area but I figure as long as you don't have any perversion in the comic, people probably aren't going to send you perverted fanart. Particularly not if you tell them not to.
Also, the more people do non-perverted furry stuff, the less it's going to be associated with perversion. Not that that's relevant or anything. But you know.
also: yay, balrogs!
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