Jens says:
Despite the risk of being accused of oversimplifying things, but...
Feather Fall is a first level spell, and Gandalf was, at that time, the second most powerful wizard in Middle Earth. ;-P
lostandthedamned says:
As has been pointed out in webcomics before (Casey & Andy I think -too lazy to go looking for the exact script) If Gandalf has access to D&D spells then there is no Lord of the Rings. He grabs hold of Frodo when back in the shire and casts Greater Teleport once. He then appears at the Cracks of Doom and gets the Hobbit to chuck the ring. It's only a level 7 spell after all.
FaileV says:
Yes, but it seemed clear the gandalf was intent to sacrifice himself for the sake of the group.
His main purpose was to kill the balrog, which means he would want it to fall as quickly as possible, and poke some holes in it just in case. If he were to use magic it would be better to use some gravity spell to increase it's fall rate.
When we are trying to ascertain the mass of the balrog shouldn't we include the metal whip that it had flailing about, that would add some mass, along with gandalf himself who was tumbling and in combat with the balrog throughout the fall.
Diabhal says:
If you want to work out whether the Balrog had wings or not, work at the problem backwards. Gandalf must have fallen at the same terminal velocity as the balrog, since they stayed together and fought all the way down. We know Gandalf is approximately 6 feet tall and 70kgs, and has the cross-section of a human male, and should therefore have an approximate freefall speed of 120mph (55m/s). The balrog must have a suitable cross-section to fall at the same speed. You can then compare this to that of the spherical balrog, and if the spherical one falls much faster wings will be necessary to slow it down.
I admit to neglecting a magical factor invoked by either one, but since I have no idea how to include that, it's just going to have to stay neglected.
Black Dragon says:
I remember Fizban from DragonLance novels miscasted Feather Fall and got Falling of Feathers =).
Anyway, were talking about MiddleEarth here, and they realy didn't do it the DnD way.
And one more thing - the mass of Balrog is as hard to specify as his wings since he is a spirit of shadows and fire. Actualy, being spiritual creature, he could fall slower then normal material object. With Gandalf pulling him down :).
hswoolve says:
true, but he was only 5th level. (only one firebell spell perday, as per a Bill Seligiman in Dragon Magazine)
Szopa says:
Refering to Jens post - both Gandalf and Balrog were Maiar, so the proper equation should be something like this d=(d+vt+(1/2)at*2)/MAGIC :D
MalikTous says:
While we study this LOtR quibble, I have some refreshment (Albatross!) and entertainment (as soon as I nail this dead parrot's feet to the perch and place this penguin on the TV...).
I always figured the fall of Gandalf and the Ballhog -er, Balrog had been extended by chambara in the movie, for effect.
Insignificant Other says:
Your calculations only work if Middle Earth is the same mass as Earth. If it is, in fact, a completely different planet then gravity will not pull objects toward the center with the same acceleration. Technically, all of this is hogwash. But fun and interesting hogwash, so I forgive you.
Black Dragon says:
Yes, they both were Maiar but they were of different nature. As I see it, Gandalf took the human form, so his physical measurments are human. But Balrog is Maiar brought to the dark side, so his measurments remain spiritual and therefore - measureless. We can even imagine Balrog trying to hover or even rise up with all physical objects (whip, sword and Gandalf =)) pulling him down.
Hazgarn says:
Oh...my...merry...goddess...
That is about the funniest damned thing I've ever read. XD
Marc says:
Perhaps, but Lord of the Rings pre-dates D&D, which means that those rules don't apply.
It's probably closer to "Chainmail" (the first RPG) or even "Chivalry and Sorcery", whose rules are so complex and obscure I never did get past getting killed by the rabbit after having spent two days creating a character.
Which means we have no way of knowing what spells Gandalf might have known. Also, did he memorize the darn things before setting off? Did he need to?
It would also depend on what the Balrog was made of. In a vacuum mass doesn't matter, but we have air resistance to consider. Is a Balrog made of regular flesh? Seems doubtful, given the environment it normally inhabits. So maybe it's made of a super-light composite ceramic, in which case the tumbling of a WINGED balrog would slow it down such that it only falls a few dozen kilometers.
Then there's the possibility that Middle Earth is not EARTH as we know it. Maybe it's actually a super-giant with low-mass centre resulting in approximately earth-normal gravity. Which means the crust might actually be several thousand kilometres thick, so the originally calculated falling distance would be quite possible.
sONE says:
You know, I'd like to see a draw of an spherical Balrog. That must looks funny.
FaileV says:
Well if it was a creature made of fire and shadows then couldn't we assume it has no mass, or at least it's mass is much smaller than one would guess being made up of only oxygen, hydrogen, and slight bits of carbon to get that smokey look.
This makes sense considering the large wings in appeared to have, far too big to be ornamental, but if it were to have mass like a human being or mammal in would never be able to fly without some massive thrust. So the balrog must have weighed much less than it appears.
scaleslea says:
It seems like everyone is getting awfully fixated on wings as if they had some magical properties that would change the problem. The existence or non-existence of Balrog wings is unimportant, as it is well documented that the Balrog in question is flightless (IT FELL!) and that it fell at the same rate that Gandalf did. And we know that Gandalf didn't cast feather fall or any other spell during the descent because he was in melee combat the whole time and you don't provoke attacks of opportunity from a Balrog. So despite the aerodynamical properties of a Balrog, it still falls at the same rate that an old man in robes carrying a staff and a sword would fall.
We can also safely assume that Gandalf did not have access to feather fall, flight, levitation, or any other gravity manipulating spells because if he had, Saruman wouldn't have been able to keep him prisoner in Isengard.
Michael Brazier says:
What? Vampire bats don't fire their editors? Next you'll try to tell me they don't throw wild parties, or drive while intoxicated. Ahem. Actually Tolkien intended Middle Earth to be our Earth's distant past, so it is safe to assume that Middle Earth's mass, and the thickness of its crust, are the same as Earth's.
Nornagest says:
My God, this has gotten out of hand. And here I was only looking at it as a mathematical exercise.
Kirala says:
I always thought the movie CUT some of the fall - two minutes hardly seems like "Long time I fell... Long I fell, and he with me.... it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge". Then again, time warps strangely when you fall. Who knows what happened objectively?
However you want to slice the book, though, it's clear that Gandalf should have died from the fall in the movie! Wings or no, them Maiar looked to be pretty close to freefall. And generally looked to be on the aerodynamic side.
FaileV says:
I was always under the impression that Gandalf had died or was dying but the spirits of wizardry smiled upon him and he became gandalf the white. So the fall was in fact a terminal one
also, falling and grappling wildly with a dark beast is bound to give you an adrenaline rush, which makes things seem longer.
Ace Dreamer says:
Both the balrog and Gandalf are Maia (as was Sauron), relatives of the Valar. You are speculating on the aerodynamic properties of semi-divine servants of the gods, one of whom weilds semi-divine elemental fire, and one wizardry. Now, I am not saying that this is completely futile...
Black Dragon says:
I just thought about it - there is one very basic and terribly wrong thing in this whole Balrog theory. We are using the Book quotes and arguments to discuss timing from the movie. The movie got A LOT of mistakes in it and movie makers could be as wrong on timing as on everything else. Gandalf and Balrog could fall for less time or they could even fall for more time. But the fall was lethal for both - Balrog died and Gandalfs spirit got knocked out from his body. So the calculations should start from defining falling speed lethal for Balrogs. :)
Rea B says:
heh. no italia.
Aeonic Entity says:
Just popped over from get medieval *tear*. great job so far!
Jens says:
Ok, without the teasing: The Encyclopedia of Arda quotes The Fellowship of the Ring, II, 5: "His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." The Balrog did have wings, but they were made out of shadow; and a Balrog's shadow isn't just a lack of light. In the light of the presence of magic of this kind, I think that these wings' impact on ordinary physics is entirely negligible. For all we know, the two Maiar could have fallen straight through the fabrics of ordinary reality (to a place "beyond knowledge"). Gandalf didn't care to elaborate, and neither did Tolkien, and thus I mere hooman won't bother about this either. There are, after all, more webcomics to read. Anyways... did we determine yet how fast the Balrog flapped its wings? ;)
jbrecken says:
So I guess you really like France?
Ford Dent says:
You all are forgetting that the fall is not what killed Gandalf nor is it what killed the Balrog. They fell into a pool, Gandalf wrestled with the extinguished Balrog for a while, and then they fought all the way to the top of the highest staircase in Moria (seriously).
So any argument that hinges on the fall being a fatal one is moot.
Hazgarn says:
"Entirely intentional" lol
I do the same thing with my fantasy worlds. Why go through all the trouble of finding out what effect putting mountains right about--here--would have when we have a nice set of terrestrial conditions we can just gank?
PhoenixXxFlight says:
RE: Comment from Jens
The importance of the word "like" in that sentence draws away from reality of wings. It claims the shadow was "like" two wings and could be argued that there were no "real" wings. My personal interpretation of the Balrog is that it is an Elemental of sorts. This being the case, wouldn't mass be indeterminate?
Mike says:
Mass isn't important- density is- think of Galileo's cannon balls- they had different mass but their density was the same so they fell at the same speed. and shape, which determines the coefficient of drag can be more critical than cross sectional area
superjordie says:
The mathematical balrog problems are very informative, interesting and extremely funny. Lets just say I'm lucky I didn't have and liquids in my mouth or it would have been a disaster. I will definetly be following this comic.
TheAuldGrump says:
Heh, and the debate lives on! :P
The Auld Grump
Nornagest says:
Forget balrogs. Does that river in the upper right run over the local equivalent of the Urals?
FaileV says:
Well saying it was a lethal fall is not entirely moot seeing as the silly things didn't come back up now did they? they may have fallen into water but at a large height that's not really helpful at all, especially considering that they were not making the impact area as small as possible.
This could have easily resulted in the rupturing of some rather important organs. I don't know that balrogs have organs, i hope so, should i ever encounter one i think i might fair slightly better if i could punch it in the kidney, but the point is gandalf and the balrog fell at the same rate, which means instead of finding the density and what not of a balrog we simply need to use the numbers for a falling wizard that got really screwed over when a silly hobbit made a loud noise earlier in the film.
MithLuin says:
Michael is right, Insignificant Other and Marc. Middle Earth IS earth; it is not another planet. Tolkien said so ;) So at least gravity and other physical properties should behave as expected.
Tolkien Forever says:
My Eru!!!!!
What a bunch of Jacksonian Revisionists!
Me thinks too much Dugeons & Dragons & Peter Jackson's TLOR's & not enough of JRR Tolkien's Middle-Earth for some of You........
The Balrog & Gandalf never fought on the fall downward:
"Long time I fell, & he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water..."
And Gandalf didn't try to kill the Balrog, he tried to get him to fall by breaking the bridge under it's feet:
'At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff & crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The Staff broke asunder & fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, & the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained (unlike the movie), poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.
With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, & it's shadow fell down & vanished.'
See, Gandalf was not trying to kill the Balrog & sacrivice himself, just to get rid of it & remove it's threat upon the Fellowship.
Seraphim_72 says:
For those of you that read the old Dragon Gandalf low/high thing I point at Iron Crown that had the chops to really make the Maiar come alive. Gandalf had to hold himself back, he was enjoined to let the world save itself. Manwe blees you all.
EvilDM says:
The Balrog has been getting more posts than the weekly comics. How sad.
RHJunior says:
"Do Balrogs have wings, and if so, why didn't it fly?"
Well, OSTRICHES have wings, PENGUINS have wings... doesn't mean THEY fly.
Jabriel says:
In at least one point in the movie, Gandalf has to use his robes to take a 'dive' position to catch the balrog...so maybe it has a faster fall-rate than a 70kg man in non-aerodynamic robes...if nothing else, those robes could be worse than the wings for the fall-rate.
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