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Dumnestor's Heroes

Monday through Friday - Filler on weekends
41 comments:
Caroline says: You are an awesome possum. It's amazing you have time to be this cool in between all the history and math and geekyness.
Günther says: Will you post the final result or do I have to teach myself the math of air resistance to get the answer? ;-)
Michael Brazier says: No, you shouldn't assume a spherical balrog; the balrog has wings, and spreads them to their maximum span, to slow down the fall. So you need the surface area of a balrog's wing. Probably you can use the wingspan/body length ratio of a vampire bat and estimate the balrog's height ... Why a vampire bat? Because other bat species aren't evil! Never suggest a balrog would eat bananas.
Anonymous says: Heh, and are your balrogs winged or unwinged? (A source of great nerd debate back in the sixties and seventies...) The Auld Grump, who holds to the unwinged side of the argument....
MalikTous says: I just figured they used 'theastrical time expansion' or chambara to extend a few seconds fall over a minute or two. Kinda like falling with a Bumble... The book seemed more real to me.
Sabreur says: On a related note, it seemed to me that the Balrog was acting to slow the fall with its wings, adding muscle power in addition to its air resistance. So it might not have even reached terminal velocity at all.
Syri says: More importantly, was it a european, or an african balrog?? wait, wrong subject...
Veon says: The thickest crust on earth is about 50km thick. But this isn't earth so you'd have to figure out how thick the crust is on Arda too.
Sayu says: MB: The Balrog might have had wings, but as given in the movie there was clearly no way for him to safely expand them in that very narrow shaft. If anything, it might have increased the (cross sectional) surface area slightly, but not nearly as much as full extension. Modeling it with a sphere is accurate enough anyway, it's all a question of the correct radius of that sphere, which may not be the size of the balrog. Of course, looking at the actual footage, I might be wrong on the first point, but I came up with a simple solution to the problem: you can watch the Balrog falling objectively in the few seconds from 3:15 to about 3:19/3:20. In about a second, the tiny looking flaming ball covers slightly more than its own diameter in distance in what we presume is a directly downward direction. I'm going to estimate from shots around that time period that the balrog, and therefore the balrog's fireball, is about 2.5-3x the hight of Ian McKellin, whom I assume to be somewhere in the order of 6', or about 2m. Therefore, it is falling at about 5-6 meters per second at terminal velocity. I know that doesn't sound right (a skydiver goes about 60), but let me do the math anyway. In that case, the balrog reaches terminal velocity in .6 seconds (3.53 feet), and falls at 6 meters per second for 103.4 seconds. In other words, the distance is d=3.53 + 6*103.4 + 0 * t * t = 623.9 meters. Which is almost undoubtedly wrong, but is much more acceptable than 100km, I guess. So no, still no real answer.
Sayu says: As a footnote, even if my calculations are wrong, I think that particular scene should be able to figure out the terminal velocity of a thrashing balrog to a reasonably close estimate, given slightly more thought than I'm willing to put into it at the moment. Also, I HAVE seen a UFO. :)
Cannon says: Didn't the balrog hit the walls a couple of times on the way down too? That would slow them down a bit.
ianthefira says: Why can't I math like this!? Stupid brain!
Anonymous says: I don't think a straight-up cross-sectional area calculation would give you a perfect answer either, because there are weird aerodynamic effects going on (lift from the balrog's wings, for one thing) and it would probably tumble. It'd give you a better answer than the straight Newtonian mechanics solution, though.
FaileV says: The balrog did hit the wall at least twice or so which would have slowed it down due to the friction of the wall. Are we counting the fact that possible the scene was shown with a delay. so it happened and then was dreamed by frodo who woke near 2 minutes later.
eldergeek says: Haven't seen the movie, and it has been years since I read the book, but if Gandalf is falling too, then magic is involved and all bets are off.
Kevin Moore says: I have no idea if the math or physics behind this cartoon is correct, but it's a really funny idea. Neat!
Khime says: Games Workshop makes scale models of both the Balrog and Gandalf, so using the height of Sir Ian McKellen as the conversion factor, you could come up with the surface area of a Balrog.
phoenyxxxflight says: (reader of Get Medieval and KiP...and now THIS one!) This is an AMAZING read! Is there any way of getting this as a print?
rosa says: oh I LOVE fairy tales! I also love the drawings in the corners, especially the princess with the hawk.
Hazgarn says: The border art is gorgeous.
Angie says: That reminds me of a book I used to have called Consider a Spherical Cow. :D The fairy tale was very cool, BTW.
Crœsos says: You're missing a coefficient in your equation of motion. There should be a 1/2 in front of the acceleration factor. The equation should read: d = d0 + v0·t + (1/2)at² That means a balrog falling for 104 seconds would plummet 53 km (if unimpeded by air resistance). Still too far, but closer to reasonable.
Daniel says: Who ever said middle earth was in our universe? Perhaps it is in an alternate one where the Earth's crust is much thicker.
Steelneko says: I adored reading this Elvish fairy tale. It was so lovely to read through, and the extra illuminations gave to the feeling of something that could have really been in an old tome. If even the filler is this good, I can’t wait to keep reading this comic.
Boleniana says: No, Middle Earth is meant to be really early on in the history of our world. I'm pretty sure.
anothergeek says: before we get too excited about the spherocity of various species of Balrog, let me point out that trying to time anything in a dream is hopeless. more in the spirit of the thing: 1: aerodynamic tumbling motion = significantly increased drag, 2: spherical != aerodynamic. 3: sectional density != volumetric density (birds and bats have low values for both, seems resanoable that a balrog would also) and 4: sectional density determines terminal velocity. that said, and to complete the picture of my geekyness, I assumed that Sir McKellen, having manifestly made the same fall as the balrog, managed to keep hold of the balrog all the way to landing, and that further, was (as he turned up later in the story) sufficiently functional after said landing to self-rescue. . . and came up with a 'reasonable' back-of-envelope range of between 1.5 and 3 km fall distance and a terminal velocity of between 10 and 30 m/s. the proof is left as an annoyance to the reader. (hint: think olympic high-divers' landing velocity) oh, and kudos on the fairy tale. . . . a fun read.
Devil's Advocate says: One must also wonder if the constant for gravity is the same on Middle Earth as here. If not, then it throws the whole calculation out of whack. I realize that supposedly Middle Earth is an earlier version of our earth, but you also must wonder what effect magic and the existance of the Miiar have on the natural laws of the world. I don't think it's out of the question for beings of spirit not to fall at the same rate, or even to the same place. So the crust of the earth is too thin for the original falling calculations, but Gandalf said they fell into darkness, not into the molten core of the earth. Someone should come out with an essay on the effects of magic on natrual laws. Also, your comics and stories are like heroin to me, you evil, evil person. Keep up the good work :D
Bruce says: "...But this isn't earth..." -Yes it is, at least according to Professor Tolkien. (I can think of at least one instance in the letters where he states specifically that *this* is Middle Earth, we just happen to be living sometime around the Seventh Age.) And I should think that he would know.
Kaylee says: Actually, the Earth's crust at its thickest in mountainous regions (such as the Himalayas) can reach as much as 70km, even though average continental crust is 35-40km. Assuming that the caves they were in were part of a recent tectonic uplift caused by continental collision (unlikely, because I don't remember mentions of earthquakes which would indicate such conditions, but then again since it's hypothetical and it's been more then a dozen years since I read the books...). They couldn't be at 70km since they travel inside the mountains, but you could push them as high as 65-68ish km. This number would allow some of the more conservative calculations.
Ada says: The Balrog has wings - it says so right there in the book.
Tolkien Forever says: Yes, "Fellowship' states 'It (the Balrog) spread it's wings from wall to wall' - NO QUESTION as to whether it had wings! The movie makes Durin's Bane (The Balrog) much too large, about 30 feet & has it breaking through rock, although it was imprisioned in rock for 5420 years until the Dwarves of Khazad-Dum (Moria) dug him out while searching for mithril. If it had the ability to break through stone, why'd it stay in prison all that time? And, most sources claim a height of 12-14 feet for Maiar, not 30 feet. And you're right, you're a dork........ :^) Just kidding. You're obviously a nerd.
Todd says: DUDE A BALROG HAS WINGS!!!!! LOL
Tamfang says: Tolkien was writing long before plate tectonics became orthodoxy. It may or may not help to note that Melkor raised the Misty Mountains to impede the migration of the Eldar.
EvilDM says: Not to mix SciFi with my fantasy but I always thought it was something like warpcore breach time. You know when the warpcore will blow in 2 min. And it takes 30 to 45 mins.
Moose says: All this calculation.. and you forget the most important aspect of fantasy, possibly two. First off... Middle Earth is EARTH, therefore a different planet entirely! Secnd.. IT'S FAN-TA-SY. Shit happens all the time in this that shouldnt.
St'anli says: The fairy tale was terrific. I can think of a few elves who could benefit from hearing it, if only they had ears. Thank you.
DanD says: You can't forget thermodynamic effects either. I'm not sure quite what the effect of a falling hot object is, but at the very least it's got to have increased turbulence above it, which would decrease pressure slightly, lowering terminal velocity a bit.
wet blanket says: Oh for heaven's sake. The most important thing is that Movie time is no more related to real time than is comic time. one minute in a movie could represent seconds or years. Really.
Fizban says: Featherf...
Humility says: I doubt they were falling straight down.
Zach says: ... if not straight down, then which direction COULD they be "falling"?
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Almost thirty and still never seen a UFO. ... full profile